tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post7787788178258235012..comments2024-03-09T04:06:47.712-05:00Comments on Abstract Comics: The Blog: Unexpected precursors: Scott McCloud, part IIAndrei Molotiuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17400106944822618816noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-87271845032283259312009-10-13T08:52:27.263-04:002009-10-13T08:52:27.263-04:00AZF - good point. Using abstract pictures to try ...AZF - good point. Using abstract pictures to try to tell a "regular" story is problematic. In most of Andrei's book, we all told DIFFERENT KINDS of stories, ones that would be impossible to tell without abstract images. It's the difference between cubism and futurism.whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09826725473614994406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-37302562229971084552009-10-12T14:01:52.995-04:002009-10-12T14:01:52.995-04:00Andrei-
An artist can easily make it so the reade...Andrei-<br /><br />An artist can easily make it so the reader identifies a specific abstract form as a constant within or subject of an abstract comic. You see this in my "Some Circles Grow Some Circles Shrink" A non-sequitur is inherently more "abstract" because it is abstruse and removed from narrative content. <br /><br />Abstract can also mean theoretical, or removed from concrete existence. <br /><br />If one makes a story about abstract forms and puts it in an abstract word based only on theory of geometry. It seems wholly semantic to say it is less "abstract" The reader will no doubt experience it as abstract (not as abstraction mind you the way say "Peanuts" and other comic strips are experienced) There is nothing human or even lifelike to identify with. <br /><br />Now, I suppose I get your point. And I will even concede to this distinction: <br /><br />an abstract comic. (a comic that does not necessarily have abstract imagery or representational imagery but is read as an abstract, meaning it is abstruse or lacks narrative context)<br /><br />A comic of abstract subject matter. (a comic that contains only abstract imagery, but places it within some narrative context, i.e. one of the first five categories, as defined by McCloud)Melvin Mannheimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10162579553535511024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-50137063095992738822009-10-11T00:43:28.560-04:002009-10-11T00:43:28.560-04:00At the risk of making it more confusing, I am begi...At the risk of making it more confusing, I am beginning to think that we need to add another dimension to Scott's pyramid. Maybe the x,y axis is not sufficient. Imagine something more like a globe. Like Scott says, there is the relation to the world dimension (x) which is based on a more or less scale, and then there is the (y) axis of craft or culture or picture plane which might be measured on a naive-to-informed scale? But the new kicker could be the (y) axis of intention, measured on a more or less scale. I am thinking of something like the Munsell Color Globe. This is mildly brain popping stuff and I swear, once I get my studio back in working condition I'm going attempt to tackle this with pre-linguistic thought and simply draw. And you are right Phyllis "Abstraction does not necessarily mean lack of meaning." In fact, I believe it has the most profound and universal meaning. . . it is just so hard to achieve that level of purity.Steven LaRosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11932068647330025855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-84851406103051346012009-10-10T18:26:45.714-04:002009-10-10T18:26:45.714-04:00Phyllis:
"Mallarme
Had too much to say
He ne...Phyllis:<br /><br />"Mallarme<br />Had too much to say<br />He never could quite<br />Leave the paper white"<br />--W.H. AudenAndrei Molotiuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17400106944822618816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-73056917248723091762009-10-10T14:10:02.203-04:002009-10-10T14:10:02.203-04:00As a visual journalist, I've always been struc...As a visual journalist, I've always been struck by the blankness of the white page when I start a new journal. Nothing has yet been recorded, but the reality of 90 blank pages in sequence is representative of the potential of ultimate completion. The journal has a front cover and a back cover. By convention, in English, we read from left to right, so the book opens up with all of the blank pages yet to be filled on the right side. It seems that abstract comios has the potential to be become the global or universal language of all people. Abstraction does not necessarily mean lack of meaning. But, once we all agree about the meaning of a particular symbol, we are back to LANGUAGE. I have never been tempted but it might be interesting to start a journal entry in the middle of a journal, and then to fill up the pages randomly. I've also heard, do not know if it is true, that Marcel Duchamp would put a date on a completed that was out of sequence with his other work, just to thumb his artistic nose at those who take such things seriously. So, as with all art, I say Hooray for Gutter Art--Art is anything that you can get away with.The Gutter Artisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15405473150188932106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-23594044987379669152009-10-10T14:05:31.809-04:002009-10-10T14:05:31.809-04:00Grant--I have family visiting and probably won'...Grant--I have family visiting and probably won't have the time to answer your comment fully for 24 h or so, but I just wanted to say that technological and economic reasons are one part of the explanation, but really not the entire explanation... After all, your own example, Sumi-e painting of all things cannot have such an economic explanation, as it was mostly done by gentlemen of leisure or priests, and for no commercial purposes whatsoever!<br /><br />More later--I can talk about this for hours! Sorry I don't have the time to engage in the conversation fully right now.Andrei Molotiuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17400106944822618816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-82443543903783604522009-10-10T09:26:13.971-04:002009-10-10T09:26:13.971-04:00I always thought that abstraction in traditional c...I always thought that abstraction in traditional comics (Garfield, Peanuts, Superman) came about for completely different reasons than why painters chose to make abstract paintings.<br /><br />Two reasons why comics are abstract, are deadlines and reproduction. The drawings must be simple enough to be easily reproduced and the sheer volume of comics (such as daily strips) forced artists to develop a shorthand/symbolic way to draw the figure in order to meet the demands of the publisher.<br /><br />In this way they have more in common with Sumi-e paintings, which are more concerned with conveying the essence of an object rather than realism.<br /><br />Abstraction in western painting is more rooted in Cubism and Clement Greenburg's insistence that paintings should be about paint and embrace the flatness of the canvas.<br /><br />I've always been intrigued by Scott's pyramid, but I always thought he was looking at comics from Clement Greenburg's point of view and missing the commercial reasons why comics start to become abstract.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09976783554909536532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-69226094970910680092009-10-10T03:20:54.594-04:002009-10-10T03:20:54.594-04:00Hi Aaron--
first of all, I should point out that ...Hi Aaron--<br /><br />first of all, I should point out that your guest post is in the pipeline and should be up in a few days.<br /><br />It's interesting that you talk about "moment to moment" and "action to action" sequences. But can you really have "moments" when you do not have a represented world with time in it? Can you really have "actions" when you do not have represented characters that act? I would say in abstract comics what you can have is gradual change from panel to panel, but that's not necessarily the equivalent of "moment to moment;" and different graphic events instead of actions. Indeed, maybe these are more primordial, so to speak--so, gradual change + represented time could equal "moment to moment," and different graphic events + notions of actors and actions could equal "action to action," (or they would if you could identify a shape from panel to panel that could be defined as a constant "actor" through the sequence). But I still believe that the first five categories, as defined by McCloud, apply only to representational, figurative comics. So, from that point of view, everything we do is "non-sequitur."Andrei Molotiuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17400106944822618816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-899946063697780510.post-20122467914919504632009-10-10T00:39:52.180-04:002009-10-10T00:39:52.180-04:00I think this is a very interesting direction you a...I think this is a very interesting direction you are headed. As people will see in my up-coming post and the work you posted from Grant Reynold's there is alot (infinite in fact) of room within abstract comics for moment to moment, action to action based sequences. One question I have though is that once a line or form is shown in an action to action, or moment to moment it becomes a specific line or shape with a history and future. Does this come into conflict with it being "abstract?"Melvin Mannheimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10162579553535511024noreply@blogger.com